Megan posts about a ridiculously ill-fated couple; basically, she really obviously doesn’t love or care about him but for some reason accepted his marriage proposal anyway, and he’s too oblivious to realize this. This is sort of an extreme example of what I think is a pretty common pattern among guys, especially young guys, where they get fixated on a certain girl, or even (as is apparently the case here) a certain type of girl, and don’t get that she just doesn’t like them at all and there’s nothing that’s going to change that. In this mindset, everything the girl does that could possibly be interpreted as indicating romantic interest is noticed and obsessively treasured, while the much greater evidence that she isn’t interested is ignored completely. This state of mind usually lasts right up until the guy manages to muster the courage to actually ask the girl out and she rejects him, resulting for the guy in extreme embarrassment and self-loathing lasting until he finds a new girl who he’s convinced likes him despite all evidence to the contrary. (The situation Megan’s writing about is a weird example where this doesn’t happen because the girl accepts, even though she still doesn’t like the guy.)
I’ve been the guy in this situation more times than I’d care to recall. Every time it happens I think over it and realize how stupid I was to miss all the obvious signals of disinterest and decide that I’m more aware now and won’t fall into this trap again, which is never true. I think a lot of this mindset stems from the well-known phenomenon whereby men tend to greatly overestimate their own attractiveness. I mean, of course she likes me; I’m awesome, right? Well, no, you’re not, particularly, but there’s just no convincing a guy of this.
Another thing that feeds into this is the tendency a lot of women have (strongly encouraged by a lot of social factors) to be very friendly and flirtatious toward just about everyone. This is useful, obviously, but it also tends to lead a lot of guys to assume sexual interest where there is none, and it really confuses these guys when the girl they like drops the act in an unguarded moment. Understanding this part has been really difficult for me personally, since I’m constantly taking flirtatiousness at face value and assuming girls really like me (and why shouldn’t they? I’m awesome! etc.), then realizing that they act the same way around everyone, except sometimes when they’re under a lot of stress or something. It can be very disconcerting to have one’s illusions destroyed like that.
One possible response to this problem is to just ask out the girls you like without trying to guess if they like you back. This would definitely be a way to tell what’s really going on, but for me at least the extreme embarrassment of being rejected, combined with a very strong aversion to being the kind of sleazy guy who hits on every woman he sees, keeps me from asking a girl out unless I really think she likes me. The problem with that approach, of course, is that discovering that a girl you thought really liked you actually doesn’t throws your whole way of looking at the world into question, and thus is a lot more painful psychologically than a simple rejection with no preconceptions involved.
This is a large part of why I’m always hoping girls will ask me out if they like me. It’s not just my innate shyness and awkwardness (although that is a major issue as well); it’s also that I really, truly can’t tell if a girl actually likes me or if she’s just being flirtatious because that’s what she does. I keep thinking I’ve reached a point where I can tell the difference and will no longer get myself into these situations, but then it happens again and I realize that no, I still have no idea.
Sunlit Water 
I’d advocate a gentler assessment, both of yourself and others. It’s pretty easy for anybody — women or men — to be confused about what they want. And emotions can shift as new information and experiences are processed. So one day there are lots of “Yes” signals and the next day someone pulls back — it doesn’t necessarily mean you read the Yes signals wrong.
Comment by Witt — August 23, 2007 @ 11:38 am |
Hmmm. To piggyback on what Witt says, but to say it a little more bluntly: allow the girls to be human, too. You’re a pretty normal young man, and it’s not uncommon for you to be confused about what you want or need or to second guess yourself. Girls don’t have it all figured out, either.
If a 22 year old guy can get a pass on not knowing how to navigate dating relationships, why would we assume that girls have it all figured out, and that getting shot down means that the guy misread it, instead of it just being part of being 22 that everyone gets their wires crossed?
So, seconding the gentler assessment. You might not be misreading anything. Not that it’s hopeful advice, to the extent that it still means that sometimes you’ll crash and burn, but it’s not like it’s always your fault.
Comment by Cala — August 23, 2007 @ 12:14 pm |
To give some practical advice, if you’re finding yourself confused by flirtiness that turns out to have been just generalized charmingness rather than pointed at you, a useful rule of thumb is to look at whether the woman you’re interested is making an effort to be around you. Smiling and eyelash-batting might not be really directed at you, but someone who’s always around, shows up for things when you say you’ll be there, and so on, is more likely to be interested.
Apo had a story somewhere on getting together with his current wife, who was an old college friend before they were involved. Right before they started dating, they spent a weekend at the same houseparty with their college crowd. Apo, afterwards, said to a friend “I had no idea she was interested in me.” The friend responded “Dude, the only time she left your side all weekend was to get you a burrito.”
Nothing’s infailable, but if a female friend is just sort of around you all the time, there’s a good shot she’s interested.
Comment by LizardBreath — August 23, 2007 @ 4:11 pm |
What LB said. Also, watch what her shoulders square to, not her face. If her shoulders square to the door, she wants to leave. If they square to the center of gravity of the circle of people, she’s generically interested in everyone. If they square to you, even though she’s turning her head to look at everyone else, she’s interested in you. I have walked to a different corner of the room to see whether someone’s chest and shoulders tracked me.
Comment by Megan — August 23, 2007 @ 4:48 pm |
Hmm. I tend to trust in my own assessment much more. I just recently dated someone who seemed only slightly interested on the first date, *very* interested on the second, and after that hardly interested at all. It sucked for me, because I let myself become attached to her because of the interest she was expressing, but then she turned it right around. That really hurts. But I came out of the experience doubting less my ability to read people, and more my approach to getting close to people. I’m not saying you’re necessarily wrong to doubt your ability here, but given that it’s not something you can easily change, I’d suggest you focus on improving your approach flirting and date-getting. (From what it sounds like, you’re not really getting to the point of talking openly about feelings before getting let down, and ideally you’d be past that point before even developing any strong feelings.)
Comment by pdf23ds — August 23, 2007 @ 9:23 pm |
Thanks for the feedback. I’m still not totally sure of my thoughts about this stuff, so if the post (or this comment) seems kind of rambling and incoherent it’s because it is. Responses to specific comments:
1, 2: Fair enough, and I’m quite willing to believe that it’s pointless to try to figure out “what women mean” as a general system. I’m sure there are cases where girls send mixed messages because they’re unsure of what they want; I tend to assume girls my age and older are going to be more sure of themselves about this stuff than I am, because they are almost certainly more experienced with it, but I see that that’s not necessarily going to me they have one unchanging attitude of which they are totally sure. One thing that bothers me about this, though, is that if a girl’s attitude toward me is liable to change, it may well be changing in response to things I do, which is problematic for a couple of reasons. First, it’s just kind of depressing to think that my awkward demeanor could lead a girl who did like me to lose interest, and second (and more importantly), it sets up a slippery slope toward the idea that I could convince to a girl to like me even if she’s not interested at first, and I’m sure you can see the danger in that. My general approach so far has been to assume that a girl either likes me or doesn’t and there’s nothing I can do about it, so my task is to figure out how to identify the ones who like me and distinguish them from the ones who don’t. The fact that this may not actually be true is disconcerting.
3, 4: I think you’ve given me this advice before, but it’s still useful and good to be reminded of it. Now if I could only get invited to some parties…
5: Definitely improving my flirting and date-getting is more important; I haven’t had a date in ages, and while I think my flirting is okay, I have a lot of trouble moving from harmless flirting to actually expressing interest. I don’t really get what you’re saying about talking openly about feelings before developing any strong ones. What feelings would you be talking about? Weak ones?
Comment by teofilo — August 23, 2007 @ 11:02 pm |
I’m very impressed by the introspection, self-knowledge and honesty in this post and thread, teo. You write for me as a young man, and think you’re very lucky to be a known, liked and respected personality at this remove via the internet, so that smart knowledgeable women of exactly the kind you’re looking for can honestly share a sense of the situation. Knowing is very important, and fortifying; doing, of course, is as hard as ever.
Comment by idontpay — August 26, 2007 @ 2:57 pm |
Hey, Teo, for whatever it’s worth… As an awkward, shy type myself, I totally hear you in feeling like that is standing in your way romantically. I have been told, however, that my awkwardness is (contrary to my instincts) in fact something men find attractive. As a woman, I can tell you that I have noted a certain awkward character in virtually all of the men I’ve been attracted to.
Before someone can find your awkwardness endearing, however, they have to have the chance to get to know you, which does require overcoming that shyness a bit. Sadly, I’ve got no great wisdom/advice on how you do that. In theory, it’s all about embracing your awkward self and being secure enough not to take rejection personally. (Just because a particular girl isn’t into you doesn’t mean there’s something wrong with you.) Easier said than done.
Comment by Di Kotimy — August 31, 2007 @ 12:57 pm |